OK, see if I got this straight.
Union members had to contribute to the pension fund every payday. AbiBowater didn't make all their contributions. Now there's a ton of money missing.
Marvin says government doesn't have to put anything in, nor does taxpayers, nor active workers..
who's left? Ohh the pensioners

The guy who left 15 years ago, who has been getting $1000/per month which seemed like fair money back then but now has the guy below poverty levels.

I see, make him take a cut, sooner or later he is going to like dogfood.

Good plan Marvin !!! You and the company came up with this?

the plan is to make the taxpayer fund the pensions, which when you consider that 70% of workers don't have a pension, is another knife in the back of average taxpayers. If one "plan" pulls off this scam, all plans will try.

no taxpayer money is to be used to help fund the abibow pension plan shortfall...all cep wants is that the existing monies be put into a trust fund..that leaves all pensioners taking a 25% cut in their pensions ..just another way for abibow to avoid paying what they owe...its time the union sticks together and force abibow into bancruptcy and let the creditors find honest management to run the mills going forward...

"all cep wants is that the existing monies be put into a trust fund"

I thought the money was in a "trust" fund ... the pension plan. The problem is not enough money.
No ... once you get bottom-feeding politicians involved, you are close to the slippery-slope of
tax payers funding the company-union mismanagement of the promises made to workers.

If the government gives this to Abitibi won't they have to do the same for Nortel, Air Canada, CanWest, Fraser, and on and on ? Over $50 billion in tax payers money. Let Weaver pay for it all !

I cant see it happening myself, like is like opening Pandora's box once again...

i dont know why there is a perception that taxpayer money will be used for the cep pension shortfall ...all the government will do is take control of the pension fund so abibow cant steal what is left...this means all pensioners and future pensioners will take a 25% cut ..

"all the government will do is take control of the pension fund so abibow cant steal what is left."

the company can't access the money in the plan .... that's not the problem ... the shortfall is the problem ... the solution is to have the shortfall topped up ... the cep wants the government to do this ... this will get them and abibow off the hook. They put the workers into this position and they both want the taxpayers to pony up for them.

neebing...abibow has access to a percentage of the cep pension plans..they want to walk away from this debt by freezing whats left and putting it into a trust controled by the govt...which leaves the shortfall to be absorbed by pensioners

neebing...I'm a fairly recent retiree who already took a 15% cut in his pension to leave early and avoid the stress at our mill. Abibow has not put their share into our plan for 10 years. We're just asking the govt. to make sure they don't take any more of our money down with them and their golden parachutes. If what I'm being told is correct, myself and thousands of other retirees now stand to lose an additional 25 % of what we were told in writing, we had to live on when we made our retirement decisions. We're not asking for any handouts, but here's a thought for you, during my 30 years at the Mersey mill, I paid in over $27,000 in unemployment insurances premiums, never drew a cent from it, maybe I should be entitled to a portion of that money back???? So please don't accuse me of looking for taxpayers to help fund my retirement!

Oldtimer:
Just about anybody that worked for any company paid into UI. You are not alone in that so why bring it up? That money is/was dedicated for another very specific use.

The article says you are asking for government guarantees to fund the trust that you are asking for. I wish you well in your pursuit but Neebing has a valid point. Is that not looking for taxpayers to help fund your retirement if things go south for Abibow?

When you chose to retire did you have a choice to take your money out and buy an annuity elsewhere? Did you have a choice to take all money out and invest in registered funds?

Greenstoner

Thanks for the good wishes. First of all, regarding UI, my comment was not intended for just myself, but rather all retirees everywhere. Last I heard, the UI fund was 100's of millions of dollars overfunded, so what better use than to actually give some back to the actual workers who paid the extra money in? It's funny how pensions are regulated so they cannot be grossly overfunded, but govt. run UI is permitted to do just that, and the govt. is permitted to take the surplus for other purposes. If the regulations were the same for both, and Abibow had be forced to pay their contributions over the past 10 years, we would not be having this conversation, because the pension plans would not be so terribly underfunded right now.

Secondly, yes I did have an option of taking all my money upon retirement, or at least about 25% of it, government regulations force you to roll the other 75% of it into an LIF with a regulated "minimum and maximum" annual withdrawal amounts. In hindsight I'm wishing I had taken this rarely used option at our mill (fewer than 4 retirees have done this in the past 20 years). The problem for me however, was that I understood that I would lose the option of continuing my medical coverage (at a cost of $222 monthly) if I went that route. I did a lot of checking and it would have cost me considerably more on a monthly basis to find comparable coverage elsewhere.

I guess the way it is looking now, the additional cost of that medical coverage would be far less that what I'm probably about to lose on my pension income.

I guess I'm going to be re-entering the job market on some kind of part time basis, and reluctantly taking work away from a far younger person trying to raise a family, and that's not the way it's supposed to be! But hey, if somebody takes away 25% of your income, you only have 2 choices right?..replace it or drastically reduce your lifestyle that you've worked for 40 years to obtain!

Oldtimer:
Even if you had moved your money out and purchased regulated funds (LIF), you likely would have lost 20-30% with the market downturn. There are no bailouts in that scenario either. We make our own choices but there are no guarantees. If the government were to use UI overages in these two situations, who gets it and where does it stop?

exactly why there is a shortfall in the pension funds ..market turned ..by putting it in a govt. controled trust fund it will increase in value as the world wide market changes ..probably 5 years ..as the value of the trust goes up so will the pensions..unfortunately due to bancruptcy the company (abibow) needs to commit an amount to the judge who will decide whether the overall plan is viable ..still ..pensioners are sure to take that percentage that the judge says is appropriate and have a decrease in pension money afforded to them

Neebing, sorry but your wrong, I managed to get my severance and pension out, locked it into a 60 month G.I.C. and I'm getting 5%
No loss there. Doing better then with the Abbi/bow club/

my mistake that comment was for just another member

I meant Greenstoner, I'll get it right yet.

Not everybody was as smart as you HE.

Not smarter then anyone else, just didnt trust the Abbi/Bow klan.
No brainer there. Now I see why.

Yeah, well the point I was actually trying to make was that many pensioners net worth has fallen dramatically over the past year due to market conditions. Instead of investing in GICs like yourself, many chose to invest in mutual funds (for example). Should the government top up those losses? Why should they top up one but not the other? Where does it end?

I agree green. There is no way that taxpayers should be guaranteeing any pension shortfalls for corporations ( Abitibi). My investments (mutuals/ real estate/ stocks for example) are not guaranteed by anyone and believe me, everything has tanked these last couple of years with markets and recession.
Does the Abitib pension fund still have the amounts that "employees" contributed, or has Abitib gobbled that up as well? ( or is it short the Abitibi contributions only?) Just wondering.

I took the commuted value ....
if you think it is just market conditions that have led to this situation you should dig deeper into the plan.
the union is as complicate as the company!
once money is paid to the plan it cannot be accessed by the company. If they are not putting enough money into the plan this is what results.

my understanding is that the money generated from employees contributions is what abibow uses for their contribution..as the markets slowed so did abibows contribution...actually in reality abibow doesnt contibute any bottom line monies to the fund ..they just use the interest on our money for their contibutions

Saving pensions

Jodi Lundmark, tbnewswatch.com

CEP administrative vice president Kim Ginter said the government needs to act quickly if they want to save pensions.
By Jodi Lundmark, tbnewswatch.com

Members of the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers’ Union are calling on the federal government to meet with them to help save the pensions of thousands of AbitibiBowater employees and retirees.

The union says it has a plan to create a trust that would have all the pension assets transferred into it; it would be managed by the government similarly to how the Canada Pension Plan is run, said Kim Ginter, CEP administrative vice president for the Ontario region.

The union is asking the federal government and the Ontario and Quebec governments to help by reworking legislation in order to create and manage the trust; they notified pensioners and active workers of the plan at public meetings held at the CLE’s Coliseum Thursday afternoon and evening.

Ginter said both the Quebec and Ontario governments listened to the plan and are taking it into consideration. Quebec even requested a follow-up meeting. But the federal government has yet to be heard from.

"What we need is for them to come to the table and talk to us, have a look at our plan, take some time to evaluate it and help us out to protect these pensioners," said Ginter.

If the trust doesn’t happen and AbitibiBowater files for bankruptcy pensions could be cut by 25 per cent.

"We have a very short time period to fix this and that’s why we’re asking the federal government to come to the table," Ginter said. "They’re the only ones that haven’t heard our plan yet."

CEP secretary-treasurer Gaetan Menard said the benefit of the trust is that it would be subject to higher interest rates and could possibly mean protecting 100 per cent of retirees’ pensions.

Menard said the union believes the plan is doable, but they really need the governments to step up and help with the legislation.

He added it’s a shame to see the thousands of people they’ve met with across the country nervous about losing a chunk of their pensions.

"Something has to be done," he said. "We, as a union, would like to be able to fix that. The governments have to be involved to protect those people. They worked all their life; they don’t deserve to see that happening."

Protect Pension Benefits for AbitibiBowater Workers and Retirees

What you can do

Send this letter to your elected officials at the provincial and federal levels and help support the AbitibiBowater members and retirees.

JUST COPY AND PASTE IT AND SEND IT OUT

Dear MP, MNA, MPP, MLA

I am in support of AbitibiBowater pensioners and we need your help, now.

The company is going through a CCAA restructuring process and it must address a shortfall of funding in the pension plan. I have been informed that unless government’s steps forward to assist that a significant reduction in the pension fund will take place.

CEP and the company have proposed a solution that would protect the pension. This would require the establishment of a pension trust with assistance from the federal and provincial governments.

This will not require a cash bailout of the pension plan from public funds.

Governments are now changing our pension laws to try to prevent the pension crisis we now have from occurring again. Let’s fix the system for the future.

But do not abandon the pensioners who, through no fault of their own, face major cuts to their retirement income.

Please do everything you can to support the CEP - AbitibiBowater proposal for a pension trust.

Sincerely,

Name

Address

Phone Number

OK Forklift,
Explain this plan and how it works.

First off if you think doing nothing is going to resolve the pension plans you are so wrong.
Second if you think the goverment is going to do anything in time unless they are pressured by the people who voted them into power keep on dreaming.
If you send this letter out via hand mail, email or a telephone call it just might get them off thier ass to do something. If not time will run out for retirees and anyone lucky enough to still be working for AbiBow.

you must have misunderstood my request, so I'll rephrase it: this plan ... it works how? Please explain.

nota bene: EVERYONE knows what the problem is.

The plan is to create a trust that would have all the pension assets transferred into it; it would be managed by the government similarly to how the Canada Pension Plan is run.
If the trust doesn’t happen and AbitibiBowater files for bankruptcy pensions could be cut by 25 per cent.
The benefit of the trust is that it would be subject to higher interest rates and could possibly mean protecting 100 per cent of retirees’ pensions. The federal government has yet to be heard from.
Note that this will not require a cash bailout of the pension plan from public funds

I would hesitate to let the government "manage" anything. Can't the plan be managed through a financial advisor once regulations and pension laws are changed?

forklift .... that is nonsense. The shortfall is $1.3bil. the haircut appears to be 25%. The only way to sustain the plan is an injection of $1.3 bil AND continuing contributions from co. and members. You need to generate from a funded pension returns of 6 to 7% annually. And not add to the retirees roll call for some time. And what interest rate would having the government managing the plan be? If the gov. were to say come up with 10% rates EVERY plan in the country would jump on it. The CPP is an arms length agent managing the CPP on behalf of the government precisely because it knows nothing, NOTHING about money management.

Neebing you must be brain dead or sucking on a bottle rum.

well forklift, that explains why you don't understand the issue.

from the local rag:



AbitibiBowater‘s pension rescue plan a tricky sell
CARL CLUTCHEY
11/15/2009

About 1,300 AbitibiBowater retirees and current workers crammed into a Thunder Bay auditorium this week to hear about a joint union-company proposal to prevent their pensions from shrinking.

“I think it (the plan) was well received,” Communications, Energy and Paperworkers union national rep Marvin Pupeza said Friday.

“I don‘t recall anyone speaking out against it.”

Two separate meetings were held at the city‘s Canadian Lakehead Exhibition auditorium.

The proposal calls for putting $3 billion – about 70 per cent of the existing pension plan‘s value – into a federally-backed trust fund that would protect pensions for 17,000 retirees who worked at AbibitiBowater operations between Ontario and Nova Scotia.

Pensions for current employees would remain in existing investment vehicles.

In addition to keeping pensions intact, the move would relieve the company of the burden of having to replenish the pension plan, which faces a shortfall of $1.3 billion.

The company, which is under court protection from creditors, won‘t be able to secure financing to restructure if lenders are told it must also spend $250 million a year topping up a depleted pension fund, said CEP treasurer Gaetan Menard, who attended the Thunder Bay meetings.

The tricky part, union officials say, is going to be to convince provincial politicians in Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick to approve the move; Menard said it‘s never been done before.

As well, the federal government is being asked to guarantee the trust fund for the retirees, even though doing so won‘t require the feds to put up any money up front.

Menard said so far, Quebec has appeared the most willing to consider the pension proposal.

If AbitibiBowater goes bankrupt, the pension plan would be wound up, put into a low-rate annuity and retirees would see their benefit payments drop on average by 25 per cent, Menard warned.

Putting $3 billion into a trust fund at a higher rate of interest would allow it go grow in value, Menard added.

Negotiations on a new contract with its workers, which the company also needs before it can secure financing, is to resume with CEP officials Dec. 7 in Montreal.

Most countries in the world have government gaurantees to workers pension funds.Canada does not. These gaurantees allow pensioners to continue an unreduced benifit and workers are gauranteed their portion and in some cases the accumalated values. Maybe the governments of Canada will get on board but it will have to be for all of the people not just for AbiBow.

As for AbiBow, this will not save them. It may rescue the $1.3 billion in pension deficet but what about the other $5 billion ?

Their are alot of people being led astray in these efforts. The 2007 merger will be unscrambled. There is no way that Bowater Inc is going to asssume all that debt from ACI. Not going to happen, doesn't matter what kind of consesions the CEP gives this fake company. Bowater will come out of Chapter 11 in the new year and ACI will crash by Febuary. Bowater and Fairfax will have their $195 million in secured credit in the form of cash or mills they want to keep.They will also receive the T-Bay and Gatineau mills and all their assets and inventories for $40 million or they will close them. Anyone from Bowater who tells you that they want to have a restructuring plan that allows a merge is lying. Think about it, the merge only happened so ACI could be wiped out and the pigs could get their golden parachutes.

Pulperpete

You've hit the nail right on the head. Unfortunately for all the current and former ACI folks, the so called merger appears to have been nothing more than a plot to get rid of ACI. Now it's obvious why your ex-chief Weaver waited a couple years after the merge and decided to "retire" now with all his riches, before the axe falls. He was in on it from the beginning. I would say he has been more than royally compensated for his part in this scheme!

The whole truth will never come out, but just examine the facts:
1. Weaver was given several million in a golden package when the "merge" was completed........
2.He was then rehired at an exhorbitant salary in a redundant position for the past couple years, which further topped up his pension...
3. Now when the axe is getting ready to fall..he is allowed to quietly retire...to spend our money..
4. Apparently terms of the so called " merge" specify that Bowater monies and assets cannot be transferred to, nor used by Abitibi...
5. Abitibi debts cannot be transferred to, nor assigned against Bowater..
6 Apparently the only thing which can be moved between the companies are newsprint orders...

If it smells like a ...

Food and facts for thought on a rainy Sunday..

Yet he breathes free air. Bernard Madoff on a smaller scale.
And if this were China he would be marched out in public and shot for the pain he has caused. Surprised no one in the states has snapped and taken him out. Lucky for him us Canadians are so laid back. Karma will hopefully play into this. Someday soon. Though I doubt it.

when bowater acquired abitibi it was public knowledge that there was separation between the two...bowaters plan was always to acquire the abitibi order book and avoid the ailing mills massive debt load..the pension plans of abibow are also separate and underfunded at different percentages

Well as Neebing has said this plan is not the best but its all we got right now. Hope you sent in your letters :)
Got a reply from Michael Gravelle and thought I would share it. Even he knows the fed. gov. is going to need lots of pressure.


Dear forklift,

Please accept my thanks for your recent e-mail regarding the proposal by
Abitibi Bowater management and the CEP for Federal and Provincial government
support to establish a pension trust for employees and retirees of the
company. Certainly, I fully understand what an important issue this is for
all those potentially impacted by a successful resolution of these efforts,
and I want you to know that I am taking this matter very seriously.

Recently, I had an opportunity to meet with senior Abitibi Bowater managment
and the national CEP leadership where they presented a proposal to our
government with specific recommendations as to how the Province and the
Federal government can help support this proposal. It is also my
understanding that the proposal has now been presented to the many employees
and pensioners affected by the pension liability the company now faces. I
made a committment at that meeting to present this proposal to the Minister
of Finance, and I want you to know that I have done exactly that. I can
confirm that the Minister is looking at the proposal very seriously and,
like me, understands the gravity of the situation.

Although I cannot tell you, at this time, how he will formally respond, I do
want to assure you that I will continue to work with him towards a positive
response. Although I recognize how important a Provincial response is, it
is more than worth noting that we will, ultimately, need support from the
Federal government as well in order for this proposal to succeed.
Therefore, I trust that all efforts are being made to engage our federal
representatives, and all government members, to also look at this proposal
seriously.

Thanks again for writing, and for expressing so strongly your support for this
joint management/union campaign.

Sincerely,

Michael

Michael Gravelle, MPP
Thunder Bay-Superior North

Constituency Office
101- 215 Van Norman St.
Thunder Bay, ON P7A 4B6
807 345 3647 Fax 807 345 2922
Toll Free 1 888 516 5555